amazing grey city

reflections on God’s amazing grace

Greg Boyd on John Piper on Minneapolis Bridge Collapse

Greg Boyd responded to John Piper’s response to the bridge collapse in Minneapolis. You can read it here. I would land in Piper’s camp myself. What about you?

Perhaps we should be asking and answering the question {for we must all come to terms with the answer to this question, whatever theological camp we fall into}, “If God is sovereign and could have stopped the bridge from collapsing, why didn’t He?”
To that I would say, “I don’t know. I don’t know why He didn’t keep the bridge up. But I do know that He does all things for His glory and our good {Romans 8:28}. But when I appear before Him, I will bow down and magnify His wisdom and say that He did all things well.”

{HT: Denny}

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August 14, 2007 - Posted by rabbi | Blog | | 8 Comments

8 Comments »

  1. I lean on Greg’s side. People surely are grown up enough to realize God allows the world to operate toward his ultimate goal but what we do has effects….cause = crappy builders, maintenance, and overload, effect = Bridge goes boom. Pretty simple and not divine.

    Ever wonder why there are billions of people not mentioned in the Bible, killed, slaughtered, and living normal existence…well humans multiplied and had a lot of kids; God used a few to shape the world into what we have today but millions more existed and died and didn’t influence the outcome at all.

    He puts his hand in when the world must go to His ultimate end but to think he determines which route you take to work….come on ya’ll you are functioning humans not lifeless droids.

    Comment by Dave Brown | August 16, 2007 | Reply

  2. Wouldn’t an eternal, “wider” perspective allow that God’s omnipotence is -as His omniscience is- sufficient to govern even the most minute details of creation? Do not the Scriptures say that he knows the number of hairs on our head? If we say that we trust that God is omnipotent and omnicient and omnipresent, why not trust it practically?
    Tuesday of this week Paul Harvey mentioned a recent New York Times article describing how astronomists have been filled with reverential incredulity as they have analyzed the most recent, scientifically sophisticated, spectrographic photos of the universe. In summary, they have recognized that the panorama, “pattern” of the seemingly limitless dimensions of an ever-expanding Universe actually resembles the “pattern” of a single cell of the human brain! Such awesome wonder as our universe displays is incomprehensible to most of us; up until now it has appeared irregular, random or patternless. But, given a perspective that is more informed- “wider”- than any before, an undeniable pattern emerges. Patterns signify Order and Order signifies Purpose. Just so with Creation: given that there certainly exists a wide enough perspective (though not accessible to us at this time), it is wise-not foolish- to believe that every part-no matter how small, random, or insignificant in our eyes- contributes to the overall purpose of our Creator. There have been billions of people who have lived and died, and billiions of stars and even universes, whose purpose may have been indistinguishable to mortals, but whose existence and destiny were certainly purposeful in our Father’s eyes. Just so, there are billions -nay, infinite- numbers of things and ways about God that we are incapable of comprehending, yet our ignorance does not preclude their existence.

    Comment by Shelley | August 16, 2007 | Reply

  3. I don’t know why God ALLOWED the bridge to collapse. But I don’t believe He caused it. I don’t know why God ALLOWS babies to be aborted. But I don’t believe He causes that either. I don’t know why God ALLOWS marriages to end in divorce. I don’t believe He causes that either. I believe God is sovereign and omniscient. I don’t know why He ALLOWS bad things to happen. I have a lot of respect for “son of the right hand” but I CANNOT agree with Piper on this.

    Comment by Christian | August 17, 2007 | Reply

  4. I agree Shelly that everything has a purpose, where we disagree is that God makes every minor decision in the world. He made us for his pleasure, there is no pleasure in controlling every decision; at least not to normal beings. He created us to see “what” would happen.

    I don’t have the answers, nor do you. Life, Earth, humanity is all an experient…a divine experient that can be ended at anytime by the Creator. Enjoy life, love God, and be open to all points of view.

    Ben, you know I love ya but I just don’t see the Piper rationale on this one. Good discussion though and I am glad to see more people on the blog!

    Comment by Dave Brown | August 17, 2007 | Reply

  5. I am sorry but does anyone else see the irony in preaching about a God who loves us and indeed created us, but yet says we ALL deserve to die, then proceeds to produce random tragedies to bully us into “submitting” to his authority???? How can anyone listen to or read the words that eminate from this man and think “Wow how deep and true.”

    Comment by Kristy Weimer | August 21, 2007 | Reply

  6. I see only beauty in the fact that –although we ALL deserve to die because we have ALL sinned against our Creator– He loves us so much that He has provided a Way for us to live eternally with Him. The circumstances He brings about in order to help us understand our need for Him (what men may see as “random tragedies”), are actually demonstrative of His great love and patience. Being an omnipotent God Who could justly destroy every living being, He nevertheless has taken the time and made the effort to reveal Himself to us.

    Sometimes it takes suffering to make a man submit to the superior abilities of Someone besides himself, to admit his weakness and need for another. Consider this simple example: when does a man go to the hospital or visit his doctor or submits to a pharmacist’s advice and prescription? Is it when he is perfectly healthy? Or is it when he has been injured or ill?

    God does not NEED anyone to submit to Him or His will. Man NEEDS to submit to God, and God graciously gives him plenty of opportunities to do so.

    Comment by Shelley | August 21, 2007 | Reply

  7. “Scripture teaches that Jesus died “not just for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world” (I Jn 2:2). If so, then why is God still in the business of physically punishing people for their sins by sending catastrophes? Wasn’t Jesus’ sacrifice enough?”

    With this Boyd is forced (in order to be consistent) to ask “Why is not every person saved? Wasn’t Christ’s sacrifice enough?” This would make him lean toward universalism, which is not a Biblical view of salvation. The distinction could be between common grace (for all), and special grace (toward God’s children) that Christ payed for [Romans 1] but his argument has no force here.

    Another point that he made about God allowing the bridge to fall as an act of causation is something that I agree with. In a sense God did cause the bridge to fall. However we have no place to apply our measure or sense of what is “moral” to God.

    This is the objection that Paul addresses in his letter to the Romans (9:15-23). On a scriptural level, Boyd has no right to expect God to live up to what he would call good or right for God to do in that situation.

    In the end we can know that all things work out for good for those who know an love God. I pray for those who do not know him– that they would learn of God’s mercy and repent to everlasting life and satisfaction in Christ.

    Comment by Chris | November 30, 2008 | Reply

  8. I agree with Greg Boyd on this one. Piper gives the traditional knee jerk response, instead of saying, “I don’t know.” Piper needs to answer the following:
    why did god cause the twin towers disaster?
    abortions are done every day, why does god allow them?
    why did god allow flight 800 to be shot down?, etc, etc.
    The point is that Piper gives the standard Western/Calvinstic response clouded with so-called biblical verses. His response is intellectual erudition.
    His world view has no room for the demonic/satanic activities that takes place in the world.
    I come from a culture where spritual satanic influence is acknowledged. Boyd emphasizes this, while Piper denies this warfare.

    Comment by Matt Allert | April 26, 2009 | Reply


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