A Critique of Rob Bell’s “The Gods Are Not Angry”
My good friend Rob typed up a response to Rob Bell’s message that we heard last week:
Rob Bell spoke Friday night at Nokia Live and titled his message “The Gods Are Not Angry.” I attended with two senior pastors who are my dearest friends from seminary. They are tracking with the Emerging Church movement and have sharp minds to discern truth from untruth. After Rob Bell spoke, we processed his talk in community and came to the same conclusion. I really appreciate Bell’s writings (like Velvet Elvis), and I think he has several great concepts and insight around 1st century culture and correlating it to the gospels. But after Friday night, our community of three came to the conclusion that Bell denies a substitutionary atonement model of Christ’s death, and is a functioning Universalist. Substitutionary atonement in a Christian model is the idea that Christ died in your place (as a substitute) in order to cover your sins (atonement). Universalism is the belief that all men are saved apart from what a person believes and typically accompanies an understanding that God is Love without emphasizing God’s anger or wrath.
My purpose for writing you is simple. As a pastoral staff, we must first be theologians because we are always communicating God to our community of believers. Every conversation we have with people communicates who God is, what he has done, and how we should respond. So, in that, we must discern truth from untruth in our culture, and we must discern truth among people who profess to be following Jesus. I know many in our flock are reading Rob Bell and are heavily influenced by his writings. He did not come out and say “I am a universalist”, or “I deny substitionary atonement”, but his message communicated essentially these ideas. First, my purpose here is not to fully develop a substitionary atonement model or what it means to be a Universalist, but to give you a synopsis of what Rob Bell said, how his message developed and the theology it implies. Second, I want to communicate a scriptural reaction to his thought. Third, give you insight on how to shepherd the followers of Jesus.
1. Rob did a great job communicating the culture in which Abraham and Jesus are historically defined by. His desire was to communicate, specifically on the gods, sacrificial system, and theology of the Ancient Near East. There were many gods of this region, who never interacted with man and who were far off. These gods demanded sacrifices and were always angry and living in chaos with one another. His two main thoughts in this section were: 1) The gods are far off and removed from people. 2) People feared these gods and never knew what was required of them (sacrificially)
2. He then transitioned to Genesis 12 where God comes into human history, comes down to man, and communicates to Abraham to leave his father’s house. Already this is a different God from the gods of the culture; one who initiates with man and gives specific directions. Rob’s understanding of why Abraham was to leave his fathers house comes from the rabbinic text (Genesis Rabbah 38, Tanna Debei Eliyahualso) also found in the Koran (Qur’an 21:51-70). Abraham is to leave his fathers house in order to leave his idols and the gods of the culture.
3. His theology of God is right on at this point: 1) a God who initiates with man and 2) a God who reveals himself and gives us specific commands. However the downward spiral begins in Genesis 22 (He has been speaking about 45min at this point). He tells the story of Abraham/Isaac. Abraham is about to sacrifice Isaac, and God interrupts while providing a ram. Rob’s point in this: God Provides. Sounds good, right? He continues… God is love who provides, he’s not angry like the other gods. God uses Genesis 22 to communicate that he is not like the other gods of the culture. He is a god who provides the sacrifice. “God’s not angry” is Rob Bell’s cry, “God is love”. “God provides, He doesn’t demand” These two statements will continue throughout his message through the rest of the evening. This is the beginning of what will turn into a denial of Substitutionary atonement and a Universalist worldview.
There is one major problem with this view. God does provide, but we also have a God who demands blood and a covering for sin. Genesis 3, after the fall of man, after they are covered with fig leaves. An animal is killed (Gen. 3:21) in order to cover (or atone=to cover) for the sin of Adam and Eve. Setting forward the biblical principle: If you desire to relate with the Creator, blood must be shed. Why? Only shed blood will cover or atone for sin. God brought his wrath on the animal through killing it in order for Adam and Eve to continue to relate to God in a different era (the era is different than pre-fall). Does God provide, yes. But something had to die and blood had to be shed. God is angry and wrathful enough to judge (or kill) an animal. Also, let’s not forget that the ram still died in Genesis 22.
4. Rob then takes us to Leviticus and specifically to the guilt sacrifice. His conclusion is that all blood of the sacrifices and the Old Testament is to remove guilt from your conscience. Guilt will be another major theme that picks up here and continues to the conclusion of his talk.
5. Next to the prophets of Isaiah 1 and Micah 6:7. He quotes the Lord in essence saying “no more blood.” He communicates that God never wanted blood for any purpose except for you to feel free from your guilt.
Is God communicating “no more blood”? Yes, but “no more blood” is connected with the hearts of people. God doesn’t want sacrifice apart from a heart that is turned towards him and loving his people. He still demands blood, but the blood has no power apart from a turned heart. This is the message of the prophets. Rob Bell does not give the full story, only “no more blood”. His theology continues to build. That God doesn’t desire blood.
6. He then moves to Jesus the Rabbi who exists in a time where the temple is controlled by the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin not only controlled the commerce, but also kept the Roman occupying force under control. There are political, commercial, and military forces all wound up in the temple. The Sanhedrin must keep the temple in order and under control. Jesus reacts to the entire sacrificial system and the occupation of the Sanhedrin when he clears out the temple and overturns tables. Rob’s point, Jesus hated the violent sacrificial system where animals are dying without reason. He emphasizes that there was so much death from animals that during Passover there was so much blood that the river turned red. His statement about why Jesus died is, “Jesus died to abolish the violent sacrificial system”. This is his view of Jesus’ death. He repeats all through out the night, “God is love, he provides, he doesn’t demand”
Here is where it just begins to get crazy with his theology. SIN was never mentioned all night and everything about the night revolved around the sacrificial system. Is there a disconnect here? The history of theology and the church shows us that if you have an incorrect view of sin, you will have an incorrect view of salvation. Pelagius would be a great example from the 5th century.
Rabbi was the only title given to Jesus. Never, God, Man, God/Man, Messiah, Christ, Son, Passover Lamb, the “I am”, nothing like this. The problem according with Bell is not sin, but guilt. So, when we see one of the most basic statements of what Christians believe in 1 Cor. 15:3 “What I received I passed on to you as first importance, Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures that he was buried and that he was raised on the 3rd day according to the scriptures and then he appeared to Peter and then to the twelve.” This “Christ died for our sins” is not in his theology. Rob Bell’s reason for Christ’s death is to abolish the violent sacrificial system because God doesn’t demand blood and all of these innocent animals are shedding their blood. However, God always requires/demands blood. The gospel is that the God who demands blood provided it through the death of his Son Jesus.
7. His last use of Scripture comes out of Hebrews 9 (though only identified as Hebrews by him). He communicates that according to Hebrews God wants us to remove guilt from our conscience. Since he is love and he provides he wants us to rid ourselves of our guilt because in doing so we can be free and love others.
The verse in Hebrews 9:9 states, “This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.” The emphasis is on the sacrifice “not” being able to remove guilt. Bell spun this to fit his theology and point. It doesn’t remove guilt, why?…Because your sin just caused this innocent animals death. Though our sin has been covered, we should never be to far away from the biblical principle of blood must be shed in order for your sin to be covered. A life must be taken in order for you to continue to live.
In Leviticus and the sacrificial system, you laid your hands on the animal that was on the alter about to die. As the animal was sacrificed, there was a very real connection that this animal was dying on your behalf. Your sin was being judged, but an animal was your substitute. Guilt for a worshiper, you better believe it! As believer, we should never lose touch with a God who provides and loves. But he loves us through his action. Jesus the God/man became sin and was judged so that we could be the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21). God always demands blood for sin. You can not communicate a loving God who provides apart from a God that demands blood and brings wrath on sin. The Christian Faith is Jesus is the Passover lamb who died as a substitute (in our place), his blood, was shed to atone (or cover our sins). Once again, though Rob Bell didn’t say, “I deny a substitutionary atonement of Jesus”, his message and theology Friday night communicated just that. He communicated very clearly that Jesus died to abolish a violent sacrificial system. His view of Jesus’ death is not a Christian view.
8. He then moves to communicate that “All things have been reconciled to God….All things are reconciled to God”. He repeats this over and over. He doesn’t give you any reference to this idea or the rest of the verse’s idea and concept. The concept comes out of Col. 1:20. Everything in the way he repeated this statement communicated that everyone has been reconciled to God. In his delivery and tone communicated that all things (all people) have been reconciled to God. There is no indication that any profession of Christian faith or belief is needed in order to bring about reconciliation with an individual. But, reconciliation has come because God is love and God provides. There was no communication that Christ’s death had anything to do with reconciliation or that any type of profession or belief was needed to bring about this reconciliation. This idea would be considered among theologians as a Universalist View of Salvation.
When we view Col. 1:19-23 we see the fullness of reconciliation. 1st it has to do with the person of Christ. “All his fullness dwell in him” (v.19), He is “creator” (v. 16-17); He is the “image of the invisible God”. (v.15). 2nd, it has to do with the means through which reconciliation was brought. The means is Christ’s physical body (v.22). It finishes, “if you continue in your faith”. Faith is what one believes. There is an aspect of belief which is the belief in the person of Christ and His body which brought reconciliation. Throughout the night nothing was said about why Christ died outside of “to abolish a violent sacrificial system”. There is no talk of “for sins” as seen in 1 Cor 15:3, nor is there any aspect of “through his blood, shed on the cross” as we see here in Col. 1:21.
As far as universalism goes, there is no proposition in his theology. All are reconciled. Biblically, we are called all throughout scriptures to believe. Christianity is always about a proposition… “Do you believe?” The content of your faith is of most important according to the Scriptures. To say that “all are saved” or that “no one is saved” are outside of biblical revelation and its parameters. There is only one name by which men are saved (acts 4:12).
Col. 1:19-23, “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
9. He concludes by saying that when you come into contact with the Resurrected Jesus your response is to love others. Not to be too picky, but the Jesus Seminar view of resurrection is a spiritual resurrection, not a historical body resurrection of Jesus who appeared to Peter and then to the twelve. But that Jesus was spiritually present with his followers. My only point with the resurrection is that we must define what we mean by resurrection to our culture. I didn’t know what Rob Bell meant by “resurrection”. But, his cry is: we are called to love others because God is love. We could change the world if we just loved. Sounds good, now were back to something good, right? He ends with music in the background as he repeats, “God is love, don’t be guilty”, “God is love, love” “God provides, he doesn’t demand”.
10. There was a standing ovation for several minutes. It all sounded Christian. But, but it was blasphemy to Christ’s work on the cross and his shed blood that brought about reconciliation. God’s Love is demonstrated through Christ dying for us (Rom. 5:8). God’s love is an action. God’s wrath was poured out on his son, but there is also a future pouring out to judge unbelievers (Isaiah 63:1-6; Romans 1:18 and Revelation 19:11-21). So, if our community of synthesis is correct on Bell’s theology there is no future return (2nd advent) where Jesus returns to Judge and pour out his wrath on unbelievers. The implications continue to spiral downward.
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I have a question for the Rabbi… What are your thoughts as a pastor on the prosperity gospel? Does my faith promise me health and weath? And was Jesus wealthy or poor?
Comment by Aaron Stigall | November 21, 2007 |
Totally and absolutely without presuming to answer for Benji, while we await his response, may I offer a friendly, though admittedly uneducated guess, Mr. Stigall? I would say that your faith promises you suffering (though whether in health matters it is impossible to say), and a better-than-even chance of experiencing earthly poverty.
Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mt 19:21
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mk 1:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.” (Not usually as lucrative a business as fishing for well, fish).
I would also think Jesus was poor, mainly because He paid his tax not from money readily at hand, but by impromptu fishing (of the usual type): (Matthew 17:25: “And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”
26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free.
27 “Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
While it is fun to speculate, I also look forward to the Rabbi’s answer to your question.
Comment by Shelley | November 21, 2007 |
Very informative stuff! Thank you. I asked because I am dealing with this issue of sorts. I found an incredible video by John Piper on YouTube. It’s on my site at http://www.lifeandtimesblog.com.
I can use those verses to help build my arsenal of knowledge!
Comment by Aaron Stigall | November 22, 2007 |
And thank you, Mr. Stigall, for sharing Pastor Piper’s video. He is passionate and courageous, jealous for the Truth, something all our pastors should be, and something we at CBC are blessed to have in Benji. Praise God!
Comment by Shelley | November 22, 2007 |
I have a hard time looking at your evaluation from the night because you obviously have never listened to Rob Bell before going to see the recent tour event but you should listen to as many of his sunday sermons before making the statements that you made. Specifically you should go to his church website, http://www.marshill.org and listen to the teachings from September 30th through the end of October. You also should examine their website and see what Rob believes before calling him a heretic and comparing him to Pelagius.
There are enough uninformed christ followers condemning people like Rob out there and we do not need anymore so just stop because no one is listening, or at least the wrong people are listening.
Matt Nash
Comment by Matt Nash | November 26, 2007 |
Matt,
I’ve been listening to Rob Bell since spring 2004. I think I am justified to make a judgement call on this. If the shoe fits…
Comment by Son of the Right Hand | November 26, 2007 |
They are those who cry, “Peace!” (Micah 3:5) when there is no peace without repentance of sin and trust in Jesus’ atoning sacrifice on the cross. Their words are chaff, worthless and stubble, and His breath and Truth will consume them like a fire (Isa 33:11).
They deny His power who deny the need for His use of it. But, we who acknowledge His might (for what use is there for might unless there is a cause or reason for might?) will have our iniquities forgiven (v 24). Thanks be to God!
In these last days there are plenty of men “having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives … men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all” (2 Tim 3: 5-9).
“But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses” (1 Tim 6:11,12).
Keep up the good fight, brother. Our prayers are lifting you up continually.
Comment by Shelley | November 26, 2007 |
I appreciate your work on this post and others. Far too long, people have taken in the Rob Bell and Brian McLaren gospels hook, line, and sinker without critically evaluating what they are saying.
Being outside of the US, I am not in a position to keep up on what is going on in the theological realm. So, it is nice to get an insight from the inside. As you said, pastors are first theologians. Thanks
Comment by Pecheur | November 28, 2007 |
Thanks, all of you for reading and commenting!
Comment by Son of the Right Hand | November 28, 2007 |
thanks for your thoughts. I have been following Rob Bell for a few years, listening to the sermons, reading his books, and I attended both tours and specifically the one in the Dallas a few weeks ago. I can understand the concern – but I think it’s dangerous to jump to some conclusions that many of Bell’s critics have done.
Has anyone tried to dialogue with Bell on these issues? What is the Church good for if all we do is create websites about how other christians are wrong? Google Rob Bell and I can’t find a ton of positive things being said. And I think that is sad – this is not how the Church should function.
I found this article which Bell discusses some of his beliefs – he doesn’t seem so radical, or universalist, as many suggest….
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/172/story_17290_1.html
Comment by Brian | November 30, 2007 |
I read the article and Mr. Bell seems VERY universalist to me. He offers people “hope” that is an assurance that their lives, religion and “faith” can be “profound and deep and spiritual” WITHOUT Jesus or God or the WORD of God. He appears to preach a gospel that may be “good news” to those “whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them” (2 Cor 4:4), but it is not the Gospel of the glory of Jesus Christ.
Why preach the gospel if you are not going to preach the full gospel, the whole story, the entire Gospel, all of the Truth, which is Jesus. Without Him, the words and lives and truths of men are meaningless.
Comment by Shelley | November 30, 2007 |
Brian,
Yes, an elder from the church where I serve emailed Mars Hill and they said:
“Thank you for taking the time to e-mail. We are sorry that Rob is not able to respond personally, but given his commitments it is not possible. We are
unable to respond to the numerous inquiries that come in at this time. Thank you for understanding.”
I understand that Rob may not be able to respond personally to every email. I wouldn’t expect that. I’m sure he doesn’t even do that with all of his congregation, which is in the thousands. However, I’m saddened that with all of the controversy, Rob doesn’t have the spiritual insight to respond wth a positional paper on his beliefs, or at the very least have one of the elders of his church do so, and post it on ter website.
I think the grandpa on Spiderman said something to the effect of, “With great power comes great responsibility.” Because Rob is in the “spotlight” he owes it to the church at large to respond and clarify his position, otherwise he is being characteristically Sanhedrinish/Pharisaic/chief priestish/scribish-
Mark 11:27 And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, 28 and they said to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?” 29 Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man? Answer me.” 31 And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 32 But shall we say, ‘From man’?”—they were afraid of the people, for they all held that John really was a prophet. 33 So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Dodging the issue and being intentionally vague and ambigious is nothing new. It only creates more confusion while drawing in more crowds and gaining popularity and approval. I actually hope and pray that Rob responds and clears the air on his beliefs…and I hope that he ends up affirming penal substitutionary atonement and the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as the only way to God.
Thanks for commenting!
Comment by Son of the Right Hand | November 30, 2007 |
shelley,
I guess I just don’t see specifically WHERE, to quote you, “He offers people “hope” that is an assurance that their lives, religion and “faith” can be “profound and deep and spiritual” WITHOUT Jesus or God or the WORD of God.”
Where? What specifically is he saying that makes you sure that is what he believes? I have read nearly everything about or by him that I can get my hands on and I don’t think I would characterize it as you have.
son of the right hand,
perhaps the growing number of bloggers and thinkers who are raising such an alarm will eventually force him to write that paper. I have spent a few hours over the last week googling rob bell and reading various blogs and papers, and websites discussing disagreements with him. I understand the concern – but I also think that perhaps he is a bit “misunderstood”, which may be more reason for him to clarify at some point. Overall, nearly every single christian author/writer/pastor on the national scene have dissenters. With tens of thousands of christian denominations, we are never going to fully agree. We need to agree on the essentials of the faith – but some things are not essential. I am from Tulsa and know of Carlton Pearson, and I know about universalism – and I just don’t see Rob
In the article I posted, Rob affirms the Nicene Creed. I think the discussion pretty much ends there. A universalist CANNOT affirm the Nicene Creed.
I suppose that a criticism I can understand or that may be valid is that Rob is sometimes ambiguous with his words. Granted, that may be the case. But always look at who his audience is – progressive thinking, middle to upper class christians who have heard the gospel a million times and may or may not have changed their lives because of it.
In essentials, unity. In non essentials, charity. In all things, Jesus Christ!
Comment by Brian | November 30, 2007 |
While reading the article to which you referred us, the right hand side of the webpage offered an excerpt from Bell’s, “Movement Three/”True” of “Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith.”
My conclusion that “He offers people ‘hope’ that is an assurance that their lives, religion and ‘faith’ can be ‘profound and deep and spiritual’ WITHOUT Jesus or God or the WORD of God” comes from both the article and the excerpt.
The interviewer asked Bell: “What is at the heart of what you do?” and he answered: “Hope. There is the perspective of the person who pretends that everything is fine-the shiny, happy people perspective, “this it the day God has made,” but doesn’t seem to acknowledge how bloody and difficult the world is.
Then there is the deconstructionist voice of despair that says, I see how rough it is and how horrible and hard life is-all they have is commiserating with you.
Then there is this third category of voices of people who acknowledge how things really are and still have hope.”
I concluded that Bell’s desire is to help people gain the perspective of the third category of people: to acknowledge “how things really are.”
When Bell described the wedding ceremony he performed for some friends, I was struck by how willing he was to fulfill their wishes: “They said they didn’t want any Jesus or God or Bible or religion to be talked about. But they did want me to make it really spiritual. The bride said it in her own great way, ‘Rob, do that thing you do. Make it really profound and deep and spiritual!’ ”
So, Mr. Bell asked the couple a few questions, they gave vague answers and Mr. Bell concludes: “I didn’t have to convince them of anything. Now I could go on about the ceremony and the party afterward and the way it ended up being one of the most sacred things I have ever been a part of…”
I admit I said Mr. Bell perpetuates people’s hope that they can experience lives of “profound, deep and spiritual” meaning “WITHOUT Jesus or God or the WORD of God” but I suppose, since Mr. Bell talked to this couple about some kind of “something”, “glue” or “force” and they all called “it” “God”, then I should clarify that I think it is not well for a preacher or pastor to be willing to consider a sacred ceremony to which Jesus was denied an invitation to, as “one of the most sacred things I have ever been a part of…” .
My closing remark refers to Mr. Bell’s seeming acceptance of “truth wherever and whenever you find it,” and that anything which seems “right” is “from God.” However, God says “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death” (Proverbs 14:12; 16:25).
The following statement in the interview : “it is a giant thing that God is doing here and not just the forgiveness of individuals. It is the reconciliation of all things” (and the admittedly short excerpt from Mr. Bell’s book) was enough to give me the impression that he is universalist in his theology.
Comment by Shelley | December 1, 2007 |
Brian, I agree with you that we should demonstrate charity to our brethren when in disagreement about nonessential things. I hope I have not been uncharitable toward Mr. Bell. My intent is not to judge my brother, but to “exhort” him as a younger brother (1 Tim 5:1). If my tone seems as a rebuke, then perhaps it may yet be acceptable for we are also told: “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim 5:3).
Comment by Shelley | December 1, 2007 |
(My last quote was found in 1 Tim 5:20 instead of verse 4.)
Comment by Shelley | December 1, 2007 |
I will not pretend to be as smart as the people that wrote this post but I would like to say something:
Was it not the Pharisees that created lists of reasons the whore “missed” the point of the law and could not know God or be saved by his grace?
What is not Jesus that walked, talked, and died for that same whore? In his actions did he not ensure she was saved?
Maybe we should all try to walk, talk, and bleed for each other. Taking our faith from the emptiness of intellectual understanding to fullness of God’s grace and love through action.
I don’t see how all that words you say in praise of God’s grace are anything more than words if you never take action on them. Maybe that is the point Rob is making. Stop focusing of the fall and start focusing on the resurrection.
Faith, Hope, and Love… But the greatest of these is….
Father forgive us all our lack of understanding,
Joseph
Comment by joseph | December 2, 2007 |
Joseph, thank you.
Comment by Matt | December 2, 2007 |
Maybe an important ponit that was missed in this blog is the fact that the old covenant and new convenant function quite differently. The verse from I John, “…for love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God, if you don’t love you don’t know God, for God is love”.
Though, offering critique is important, it should be done in love, not accusation. Accusation regarding Universalism (though it wasn’t clearly explained that Universalism is bad or good) seems like an attempt to make Rob sound scary. Christ was universal in many of His attempts to bring love and healing outside the Jews. It would benefit to explain your understanding of how universalism is good or bad in this case.
I’ve always heard Rob re-iterate that it is only through Christ that we have our salvation and life. In that sense, it doesn’t sound like that is a subscription to universalism with respect to salvation…anything saves.
Again, the new covenant is completely built on love and only love. I understand it’s a tough shift for others who follow Christ, the same that I try to do, and find themselves caught between the old and new covenants, but it could be a matter of allowing the new to fulfill the old once and for all.
Comment by Greg | December 2, 2007 |
I agree that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). I wonder that you are judging that our “talk” is without “walk.” It seems you are. You do not know in what ways I (or any of us who disagree with a universalist theology) serve Christ. You do not know whether I sacrifice for my Lord, whether I am merciful to the poor and compassionate to the suffering, whether I feed, clothe, visit and help the widow and the orphan (or any His children). You cannot have seen the fruit our Father is producing through us in our communities, our churches and our homes.
When we point out things we disagree with about the preaching of Mr. Bell and others of similar theology, we are not accusing him of being an unbeliever. We do not judge his heart or presume to know the status of his salvation. Nor do we accuse him of being an unfaithful servant (as some of you are doing).
The main strength of our concern is not with whether someone who has been saved by grace through faith (ie. Mr. Bell)–who presumably has the intellectual understanding– will live or serve in any sort of “correct” or “proper” way before our God. We are not modern-day Pharisees. Perhaps our tone is being misinterpreted in cyberspace.
My concern (I will say only “my” since I should properly only speak for myself) is for the salvation of souls who may only be hearing a portion of the gospel message, and are not hearing the WHY of the gospel message. They may be hearing, “God loves you! Therefore You are saved!” Going by some of what Mr. Bell has written and said in some interviews, it appears some of his audience may not be hearing that they must repent for their sin, so that they would embrace the work of Jesus on the cross INDIVIDUALLY for their own sin.
If people are embracing a version of the gospel that neglects Jesus Christ, and is based in large part upon subjective or mystic feelings instead of objective TRUTH, then not only is their sanctification progress likely to be hindered, but their salvation can not be certain to begin with. (I say this NOT with judgment or accusation that they are pretending to be what they are not. I am, instead, fearful for their souls: “Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine” (Matthew Henry, re: James 2:19).
Comment by Shelley | December 2, 2007 |
so is this an argument of whose interpretation of the bible is correct? seems like a waste of time as 1,000s of people have been doing this for over 1,000 yrs. next we should start discussing why catholics are wrong, and mormans, and baptists, and Hindus, and Jews and well wait, that doesn’t get anyone anywhere now does it. just creates mistrust and hatred. rather, we move ahead with our own life experiences and this book that we all read and understand at some level. hoping and praying and loving that we show God’s love (as we understand it) to others. i apologize if this sounds short and rude but is this time well spent? perhaps we
move forward, helping one another shine the Light of world into a dark dark world the best we know how?
Comment by Matt | December 6, 2007 |
Helping one another should certainly be our goal. But, “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?” (Luke 6:39).
Jesus gave us teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, …that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up…” (Eph 4:11-15).
“And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will” (2 Tim 2:24-26).
The Truth (which equips God’s servants to do His will) is hard to explain to those who have become dull of hearing (God’s children who are spiritually immature). “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil”
(Heb 5:11-14).
Teaching pastors can be some of God’s most effective instruments for equipping us to “help one another shine the Light of world into a dark dark world.”
Comment by Shelley | December 8, 2007 |
My church and my teenagers youth group has been contaminated with Rob Bell’s video’s and teachings. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and a fifth graders knowledge of Jesus, sin, God and the Bible, knows that what Rob Bell is selling is corrupt, mystical and half truths. I pulled my family and my teenager out of that church. I asked the youth pastor to investigate further the teachings of this guy, and he refuses, he puts Rob Bell next to the Bible and says as long as they Rob Bell teaches from the bible he won’t stop. The problem is not what Rob Bell is teaching FROM the bible, its what he LEAVES OUT, like all other seeker sensitive, emmerging, universalist’s theology, corrupt. Come soon Lord, they are corrupting the body of Christ with their half truths.
Comment by Tina Fisher | December 8, 2007 |
oh, not to mention the youth pastor has taught the nooma nooma breathing (a yoga like hindulistic breathing contemplative prayer excercise) with video’s to the children. Nothing like sending your children to a church and having them taught a pagan practice behind your back. I’m disgusted beyond belief, and have done alot of praying for those children and those left behind in that church. They refuse to be rebuked, and more then 1/2 the church has left (the elders and spiritually mature have left). Only sinners, spiritually immature and curious or the small puffed up group of supporters of the pastor and the youth group pastor.
Comment by Tina Fisher | December 8, 2007 |
What does being a spiritually mature Christian mean?
Comment by Matt | December 11, 2007 |
The more mature a Christian is spiritually, the more he consistently obeys the will of the Father, is able to resist temptation, and discern between the holy and the profane, Truth and lies, good and evil (Hebrews 5:14, NASB). (It may also be helpful to look at Luke 8:13 for a description of what happens to one who is not spiritually mature.)
Comment by Shelley | December 11, 2007 |
thank you for your insight on Christian maturity, obviously this seems to be a subjective “state” of being and up to discussion, eh? how do you know if some one is spiritually mature and therefore you can trust their interpretation of the bible? what if two spritually mature people disagree?
it still seems to me through the above discussion on this page that the issue is assumptions of one interpretation of the bible are correct and the others are wrong or misguided? isnt there some level of unknown with the interpretation? some major levels of unknown with God? is it correct then that the problem(s) people have with rob bell is he has a different interpretation of the bible than traditional evangelical christians? or a different focus? seems bell focuses on areas that others do not and vice versa? it would seem logical to me that a spiritually mature jewish person, a spiritually mature methodist, and a spiritually mature catholic and a spiritually mature lutheren would all disagree over theology. who is to say who is correct?
thank you for your insight on any of this.
Comment by Matt | December 12, 2007 |
I have found Matthew Henry’s commentary on the following passage to be helpful to my understanding of the importance of the differences between interpretations: 1 Cor 3:11-15:
“Of those that hold the foundation, and embrace the general doctrine of Christ’s being the mediator between God and man, there are two sorts:-
“I. Some build upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones (v. 12), namely, those who receive and propagate the pure truths of the gospel, who hold nothing but the truth as it is in Jesus, and preach nothing else. This is building well upon a good foundation, making all of apiece, when ministers not only depend upon Christ as the great prophet of the church, and take him for their guide and infallible teacher, but receive and spread the doctrines he taught, in their purity, without any corrupt mixtures, without adding or diminishing.
“II. Others build wood, hay, and stubble, on this foundation; that is, though they adhere to the foundation, they depart from the mind of Christ in many particulars, substitute their own fancies and inventions in the room of his doctrines and institutions, and build upon the good foundation what will not abide the test when the day of trial shall come, and the fire must make it manifest, as wood, hay, and stubble, will not bear the trial by fire, but must be consumed in it.
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest to himself, and made manifest to others, both those that have been misled by him and those that have escaped his errors. Now we may be mistaken in ourselves and others; but there is a day coming that will cure all our mistakes, and show us ourselves, and show us our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise: For the day shall declare it (that is, every man’s work), because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.”
Of course, it is the LORD who searches the heart and tests the mind of a man (Jeremiah 17:10). Final judgment is His. And yet, while in this tolerant age we are tempted to “leave well enough alone and let each individual believe what he wants to believe,” we are expected to at least attempt to discern and distinguish true doctrine from false doctrine or error:
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn 4:1).
Comment by Shelley | December 12, 2007 |
Matt!
I hate this blog Rob (or at least i think that’s who wrote it)… sorry if i messed up.
I hate it because this is such a major issues and I LOVE Rob Bell because he has helped a lot of my non-Christian friends see and love Jesus and trust that Jesus teaches the best possible way to live.
i’m not here to discuss theology…maybe…
but if this is true…I wish I could have gone but I was at Church! (name of it)
I couldn’t go that night (yes, i live in brooklyn)
If what your saying is true that has huge implications for me. I will still listen to Rob Bell. I will still continue to learn from him as much as I do with other pastors, or athiests, etc. you get the point.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
PLEASE KNOW (as well as i’m sure you do) THE POWER of internet
Not sure what if any theological agenda you may or may not have.
Thank you for the info at least educate. I think God will still continue to bless his ministry which is weird if what your saying is true. God did with Teg Haggard and look at that mess.
thanks again.
PS
I still don’t know people are afraid of the wrath of God? I just think there is something beautiful about propitation. (can’t spell)
the fact that God takes his wrath out upon Himself and we are justified because of it.
That’s crazy Bell would look over the blood. Judaism/christianity is a pretty blood “religion”
enough for now.
HEY IF YOUR IN NYC LET’S GET TOGETHER. I’D LIKE TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS WITH YOU.
Comment by Ben | December 13, 2007 |
Shelley, I again appreciate your fully researched response! I have been draw into this discussion, yeah yeah I know, Im a hypocrite…
I was re-reading the beginning of this discussion, and several other blo-esque comment areas relating to rob bell, and still i guess i am amazed by how negative a response he has receieved. it really baffles me for the focus he has, from my view point, is to love God and love our neighbour and figure out how to act on that, and do it. from what i understand, his critics are suggesting that he is leaving out parts of the bible or is making false claims about christianity…? (but honestly who has fully grasped and explained the entire bible in all of its possible interpretations (old and modern) in one 15 minute video or one 45 minute sermon or one 1.5 hr talk? (well there is that saying from that old rabbi hillel that the whole old testament “is love your neighbor as yourself, the rest is commentary, go and study it” and that take just a few seconds to say!). i guess we could argue the point about differing details of theology of any denomination of christianity against another, ie. one methodist says, “well there goes those catholics, claiming transubstantiation again….” we could have whole blogs devoted to debating that topic alone (but again how many people see the love of God by our actions like that?) and like what has been suggested about rob bell’s interpretations, it is these theological items (which are left out or interpreted differently) which are very very important to some people. hasn’t it always been the details of christian theology that have divided the church over and over again? (minus of course those purely poltical divisions) i am by no means a theologian (obviously) but i cant help but read the gospels, as a lay person, and think that in my opinion that bell guy has a pretty simple approach to the gospel, is trying to do God’s will the best he knows how, all with an academic theological background, and what would appear to be a mature spiritual leader in ed dobson. i could be wrong (i am most of the time, ask my wife), rob bell could be wrong, but when testing the spirits, it seems that this spirited bell guy is doing well by God. quite the ramble i have going here. what are the issues people have with him? simply put? i think we could create a similar list for any denomination that is not like “ours” per se. the truth i see here is that we are all trying, “attempting” to discern the truth as you suggested. to say one person’s discernment is wrong or misguided is illogical to me when dealing with the supernatural. is that not more honest than saying one discernment by one group is always right…? again i could be wrong here. i know that there are a lot of christian groups that cringe at the word tolerance, but i whole heartedly disagree, if we weren’t tolerant or lived in a tolerant culture (relatively), and lets say one particular group of christians forced everyone else to believe a particular doctrine, i think we would all be praying for tolerance at that point.
what’s the saying, “i dont care too much for doctrine, cause doctrine can’t buy me love”
Comment by Matt | December 13, 2007 |
Theology is destroying the teaching of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Like the Pharisees and Sadducees you sit upon your high horses and hide behind your study books. Did Jesus send his followers to get a degree in theology, NO, they were simple fishermen.I would like to see a simple fisherman get a job within the Church now, but he can’t, not without a degree, now who does the churches today remind you of? Oh how we like to run to our commentary books, which are by the way just another person’s interpretation, what ever happened to trusting in God alone and being guided by the Holy Spirit.Too much time is wasted sitting around arguing on unimportant issues and judging our fellow Christians. Who among you can cast the first stone, NOT ONE OF YOU, we are all sinners. How about taking a good look at yourself and learn to love, forgive and stand up for the Christian rights. what about standing against abortion. Stop hiding behind silly issues and start standing up for God out in the world.
Comment by Jason | December 19, 2007 |
“I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34).
Jesus Christ came to send a sword through every peace that is not based on a personal relationship to Himself.
Comment by Shelley | December 19, 2007 |
I think you guys have too much time on your hands and are looking for holes in what Rob Bell has to say. I understand that you love the book Velvet Elvis and in part of it he says ( if you remember) God has spoken and the rest is commentary.Like you and me and Rob Bell, we are all just contributing to the discussion. I went to hear Rob Bell in Atlanta during his The god’s aren’t angry tour. And I was blown away once again at his ability to communicate The Truth.
Comment by Ricky | April 7, 2008 |
Admittedly, Bell does go with the soft sell, but too many people go with an 100% doctrine that anything short of a full-court press of Biblical truth, then you’re not telling the truth. What about the standard teaching practices in Sunday Schools around the country on every Sunday? We teach a rosy, “God loves the little children” doctrines that aren’t 100% true.
Yes, in a couple places, I feel he is misguided or mistaken, but I don’t suspect that he is intentionally telling lies. Those with strict views feel that if you’re in that camp, though, you’re akin to a demon. And I’m serious about that. (See: http://www.apprising.org/ )
If Rob Bell were just a guy that you bumped to on the street that professed a zeal about his faith, but maybe had some erroneous ideas about scriptures, you’d possibly try to correct him or, if not given time, pray for the Holy Spirit to provide illumination. But if you’re Rob Bell, somehow, it’s a defcon 1 alarm and time to alert the world that the anti-Christ is on the prowl.
Yes, teachers of the Word are held to higher accountability. But why can’t it be that is someone is wrong about their understanding of the Bible, that they can’t just be wrong? Why must it be that they are heretics? There are many in the church that have quite different opinions of the doctrine of election. Who is the heretic in these cases and who should be stoned?
Sometimes, it seems as if the Romans really wouldn’t need lions today. They just throw offending Christians to other Christians and let the slaughter begin.
And what about the vast majority of their Rob Bell’s words and actions? What if they have a good basis in scripture and are Biblically correct? Does that portion of their testimony suddenly become tainted to the point where it is unworthy?
If some of Bell’s tenants are that we should live in (Christian) love toward each other, who would have objections with that? Show of hands please. And what about his calls to bring social justice to the world? Anyone in the crowd against that?
If Rob Bell is wrong, don’t you have enough faith in the scriptures and God to know that He can handle it? History is full of folks who have been wrong about their interpretations of the Bible. The Bible’s truth still stands and God is still up on Heaven.
Yes, we are charged to “rebuke” our brothers when they are wrong, but if you must correct, do it with the love we are directed to do.
Sorry this goes far a field and seems like an apologetic for Rob Bell’s ministry (no, I don’t attend his church), but all too often, I see Christians taking other Christians down in the defense of “their” truth and not always God’s Truth.
Comment by Randy | April 11, 2008 |
I know this is going to sound like I’m a Rob Bell apologist. I’m not — really. I don’t attend Mars Hill, I’ve only read excepts from “Velvet Elvis” (maybe I should read it?) I have watched 4 Nooma videos and have listen to about a dozen of her sermons via mp3.
Anyway, here’s some direct quotes from a sermon delivered in a sermon from Rob Bell that I think contradicts that he is a Universalist. This comes from a Feb. 2, 2008 sermon titled “My Deliverance:”
“For us as Christians, we begin with the fundamental assumption that there is something wrong with the world. And what we find wrong with the world, we find it deep within ourselves. That sin has entered into the human story. Each one us carries around a heart that is deeply bent and warped. Our explanation of that would be sin. Because of that, our world is in bondage to the same darkness same warped spirit of sin. We operate under the assumption that God loves us and has not given up on human beings, but has rescued us through Jesus. That Jesus coming among us — teaching and then being executed on a cross was God’s rescue effort for the human race — for all of creation. And for us, it is Jesus absorbing, taking the worst that human beings can do to each other, taking all of our sins, dying and then rising again — conquering the worst that can happen to any of us, which is death. And for us, the heart of being a Christian is that we are sinners and we are saved purely by the Grace of God. And when this happens to you and you come to this realization of trust, acceptance, belief, whatever language you use for it, of “Thank you, God, I understand that I have sinned, that I need a savior, that I need rescuing. When you have this moment, when you come to this moment, for some it’s a simple prayer, for others, it’s a long period of transformation. It’s gradual waking up, you’re only response must be is that I must take what has happened to me — this grace that has been extended to me, and extend it to others. How can I not share this.”
I think this clearly states that he see Jesus as taking on our sins, acting as our atonement. I see that he clearly states that “we are sinners and we saved purely by the Grace of God.” And then he goes on to state to accept salvation, we have to admit that we have sinned and need a savior..
Again, I’m not an apologist for Rob Bell, but a brother in Christ, who gets disturbed when decide to attack ourselves from within. There’s so much of God’s work to be done that we really should be working on evangelism and reaching out to those who need God’s influence in their lives instead of taking down each other.
God bless,
Randy
Comment by Randy | April 12, 2008 |
in addtion – in Bell’s Easter sermon a few weeks ago he STONGLY AFFIRMS the physcial ressurection of Jesus Christ. STRONGLY AND BEAUTIFULLY – one of the greatest messages i’ve heard. Listen to the ENTIRE thing…please. Bell is NO heretic.
Bell and many others (NT WRIGHT, Dallas Willard…) are helping reclaim some of historic orthodox christianity that has been lost in the modern american evangelical/reform church. RECLAIM THEOLOGY
- substituionary atonement is not he only biblical view of the atonement – in fact it is not the orginal view.
peace to you.
Comment by tay | April 19, 2008 |
Substitutionary atonement is not necessary to be orthodox and does not equal universalism. I encourage you to look up theories of atonement like Christus Victor.
Comment by joeyspiegel | June 5, 2008 |
Uh…yes it is.
Comment by Rabbi | June 5, 2008 |
[...] of the heated discussions around here concerning Bell’s theology {see the posts here and here}, I thought I’d point out that the DVD from his tour “The Gods Aren’t [...]
Pingback by Rob Bell: The Gods Aren’t Angry DVD « amazing grey city | June 5, 2008 |
I understand the concerns around Rob Bell. But I no longer worry that he is off the mark. He challenges us for sure and I’d argue that is more than happy that he sparks people to get out their Bible’s and wrestle with some of the stuff he says.
When I first started reading his work I had some questions arise but the more I read, the more I undertood that he is very much on the ball scripturally and theologically. I guess some folks have to have “in the name of Jesus” after every statement someone makes or else they are suspect. But I don;t know how many more ways Mr. Bell can confirm that he is a man who lives by Orthodox Christianity, The Nicene Creed, or however you want to say that he has the essentials covered. Over and over again in the Beliefnet article linked in an above reply he talks about The Risen Christ, the resurrected Christ, etc.
Faith, Hope and Love…He’s got them covered.
Is his theology always 100% correct and without error? Nope…Neither is yours. Neither is mine. Neither is Billy Graham’s.
As for universalism, my guess is if Rob walked into a Universalist church and tried to teach he would be thrown out for being a Christian.
Comment by Helen | June 19, 2008 |
Universalism, I don’t think so. I read a pharisaical viewpoint of a imperfect man doing his best to show the real Jesus as the scriptures express. The questions he ask do not dog the unbeliever with judgement and finger pointing, of which we are called not to do: 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
I hear a man whom Yeshua Ha’Mashiac has redeemed and continues to redeem every moment of everyday…
This man wants those lost in the wilderness to know there is someone who wants to help them find their way and Yeshua has sent them to lead them home.
It must start with love.
Comment by charsoo | June 19, 2008 |
Bell is no heretic by any orthodox view of scripture. Go to his church’s website (Mars Hill in Grand Rapids) to see what the doctrine is that he believes and teaches. There is no doubt that he makes clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation and that we must individually trust Jesus as savior. Most of the criticism I have seen is from those in the reformed theology camp, who generally have a dim view of most other Christians who do not subscribe to reformed theology. Personally, I am quite comfortable that God will accept into heaven the person who desires to love and follow Jesus, obeys His commands to love God and love others, but has no idea what the concept of substitutionary atonement is. The problem with modern American Christianity is that we have turned it into a “knowledge game” much like the pharisees that were so quickly condemned by Jesus. Yes, only Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Yes, we must die to ourselves and follow him. Yes, that means we are to love God and love others. Scripture tells us what love is, in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, any basis for belief that is not grounded on Jesus Christ is a path to destruction. But, to say that I must understand the essence of “blood” and concepts of atonement to be a believer is quite silly. If we applied the standard many use to judge Rob Bell, we would likely conclude that the Apostle Paul was not a Christian. In some of his letters in the Bible, he didn’t lay out the whole gospel and he made some statements that could lead one to believe he was a universalist. My goodness, he didn’t talk about Christ’s blood in all of his letters either. But, because we have the whole of his work before us, we know he was orthodox and led by God in his writings. Although I cannot say that Rob Bell is “led by God” like Paul was, if we look at the whole body of his work as we would with Paul, we see that he is very orthodox in his beliefs. So, let us focus on actual destructive heresy that is being taught, and not the things we think are missing or implied in someone’s words. As the saying goes, if you “assume” what someone is saying . . . .
Comment by Craig | July 1, 2008 |
I would just like to thank everyone for sharing their point of view. Its nice to have read how people respond to one of the leaders of the emerging church. I agree with that reading this may have caused me time but for sure it was helpful. as iron sharpens another… i am touched by Bell’s messages and it has prompted me to draw closer to God and see him in a different light. and in doing so i learn some more. i guess my point is we can argue and debate about things or we can chose to grow in the faith and lead others to Christ. Isnt that the whole point? again for those who initiated this blog and those that shared their opinion i thank you. when we are all finally in heaven and we see the grand design of God which we are all part of, i bet we will laugh and cry for while were doing (or some people) the nitty gritty of our reading and delivery of the word to this dying generation people are dying and getting more and more lost.
again thanks for inspiring me guys.
Comment by Joshuasbuenaventura@yahoo.com | September 1, 2008 |
Dude I don’t know what night you saw on the tour but what you heard and what I heard is incredibly different at certain points.
Comment by Roford | September 18, 2008 |
Matt – do you have one of those “COEXIST” bumper stickers on your car? Truth is what corresponds with reality. Catholics, mormons, evengelicals, evolutionists, muslims, etc. can’t all be right.
Everyone, the reason we must be critical and Rob Bell must be more consistent and careful is because the Bible is crystal clear that 1. You must have the exact gospel and exact response to avoid hell. 2. A lot of people are going to get it ‘kind of’ right and get the shock of their lives. Consider this most frightening text of all the Bible: Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
And just before that Jesus says “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
Also in Gal. 1 – Paul says twice in a row that anyone who preaches a “different gospel” should be “eternally condemned”. If Paul was such a hard-liner on the Gospel/theology/doctrine, don’t you think we should be too?
The Gospel is not “Love one another”! Loving one another is the necessary result of those who correctly responded to the Gospel. See 1 John 3:14. Look at the scripture, it is clear, Dead People (Eph 2.) don’t love – they must be made alive first and then they love. You’ve got the cart before the horse.
Finally, regarding those multiple interpretations of the Bible – Matt, after reading your comments, I’m glad you fully agree with the Blog ownner’s Critique. At least that is the way that I interperate your posts. After all, if we can interperet the Bible 1000 different ways, can’t we also interperet your post 1000 ways? Or when you write, do you actually mean what you say and expect us to take it at face value? Why then should we not also take what God says at face value?
(Sorry, I know I’m a little off topic here, but Rob Bell is either right or wrong. He isn’t automatically right simply because we WANT everyone to be right. To cry “Can’t we all just get along?” … the answer is “No!”)
Comment by Daiv | September 24, 2008 |
Daiv,
Thanks for the post. Most have been vitriolic and for the first time a few days ago I had to delete a comment by someone who leads worship at a church but whose comments were full of hatred and a few cuss words, to boot. You’re spot on. The cart has been out before the horse.
Comment by Rabbi | September 24, 2008 |
Daiv:
I had to out-right contradict another post, but when I read your comment, I felt compelled.
Here’s your quote:
“1. You must have the exact gospel and exact response to avoid hell.”
From my perspective, this seems like a prescriptive and legalistic interpretation. In fact, it seems flat out wrong since it is only through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ that we are forgiven (and given eternal life) and not through exact adherence to the gospel or through any action of our own.
The Bible is full of folks who failed to live up to the criteria you set forth and we all fail to meet those standards. Heaven would be a very empty place if that were the case.
Again, sorry to be so blunt, but I felt like I had to say something.
God bless,
Randy
Comment by Randy | December 31, 2008 |
Hi Randy,
Happy New Year!
Are you saying that there is no precision in the Word of God?
Thanks!
Comment by James | January 26, 2009 |
Daiv:
No, there is definite precision in God’s Word.
Sorry if I came across as strident. I was just giving my perspective on grace being the way to Heaven, not works.
Thanks,
Randy
Comment by Randy | February 5, 2009 |
[...] teaches contrary to the substitutionary atonement of Christ. I have heard him decry that “God is not angry” for man’s sin. I have read his works which come exceptionally close to preaching [...]
Pingback by Rob Bell’s “Nooma 019 Open” – (Review) : ReturningKing.Com | October 5, 2009 |